Transcription
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Today is Monday, January 27, 2025, the time is 11:36, we are here with Mr. Raphael Mousis at his home in Kifisia and I will conduct the interview, Michalis Daskalakis Giontis.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Now, Mr. Mousis, first I would like to ask you where you were born?
Raphael Mousis: Well, I was born in Thessaloniki, although when they ask me what my origin is, my answer is I am three-quarters from Ioannina and one-quarter from Trikala in Thessaly and I don't say I'm from Thessaloniki and indeed neither my father, nor my mother, nor any ancestor was from Thessaloniki, they were not Sephardic.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Sephardic, yes.
Raphael Mousis: So why was I born in Thessaloniki? My father, Aser Mousis, was born in Trikala and grew up in Trikala. The Jews of Trikala because they had influences both from the Romaniotes of Ioannina and from the Sephardic Jews of Thessaloniki, in many homes they spoke both languages. So my father grew up and had two mother tongues. Which he spoke equally well. Greek and Ladino, the Jewish language.
Raphael Mousis: He grew up, he was very good at his school. And his father, Raphael Mousis, whose name I bear, was a court clerk. And so with legal matters he had, if you will, some kinship my father. And he came and studied law. At the University of Athens. He graduated from the University of Athens.
Raphael Mousis: And he knew that there was this large and flourishing Jewish community in Thessaloniki. Which had the problem that it had found itself relatively recently belonging to a state called Greece. With which they had no connection. They didn't speak the language. The Jews of Thessaloniki. Among themselves they spoke Ladino. And the educated ones spoke French.
Raphael Mousis: I remember as a small child newspapers that were circulating and were either in Ladino or "L'Action." There was a Jewish newspaper published in French. Consequently they didn't know Greek. And they found themselves having issues that they needed to support before courts. And there was no lawyer with whom they could communicate. And there came like a deus ex machina Aser Mousis, who was a Greek lawyer, speaking Judeo-Spanish.
Raphael Mousis: It is written in a biography of one of their colleagues that to see Aser Mousis as a client's lawyer you had to ask for priority appointment. So great was the need. And subsequently he brought into his office Yomtov Coel, also a very well-known prominent Jewish personality, who was also from Trikala and so there were Yomtov Coel and Aser Mousis in the same office on Ermou Street in Thessaloniki.
Raphael Mousis: And subsequently they brought with them also a fellow Trikala classmate, this time not Jewish, Sotirios Papadimas, who was a notary and so there were the two Jewish lawyers and the collaborating notary who served all needs, whether civil, criminal, family, whatever, of my father.
Raphael Mousis: Well, that's why I found myself in Thessaloniki, subsequently while he had already established himself as a lawyer through arrangement he married my mother, Rieti Geti Levy, granddaughter of Davidson Effendi, so, from Ioannina, the wedding took place in Ioannina and then they settled in Thessaloniki, at 90 Tsimiski Street.
Raphael Mousis: You know today when we say they lived on Tsimiski Street, it seems strange, because Tsimiski is a commercial street, shops, offices, then it was a street where people lived and it was three floors and an attic, four in total, property of my father and in this house I was born, so. And that explains why I was born in Thessaloniki.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Your grandfather Raphael Mousis is the one who was tortured as mentioned in the book.
Raphael Mousis: He is the one whose left hand was cut off because he was accused, during the recapture of Trikala by the Turks in the war, the Unfortunate War of 1897 and he was accused of pro-Greek activity for which he was sentenced to death. A Turkish friend of his, Omer Bey, intervened on his behalf and the death sentence was commuted to a sentence of hand amputation. He was the one who was one-handed. He wasn't alive when I was born, I never knew him.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: What year were you born?
Raphael Mousis: 1933.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Was your father's family many generations in Trikala, as you know?
Raphael Mousis: Look, no, it couldn't have been many generations because his grandfather must have been from Agrinio. And they were expelled, there was a persecution of Jews from Agrinio during the time of Kosmas of Aetolia. And of course there were no surnames, Jews didn't have surnames. They had a name and patronymic. They were forced to acquire a surname in order to obtain Greek citizenship. And so Raphael Mose, which were both first names, became Raphael as first name and Mose as surname. My father changed Mose to Mousis when in some way there was a tendency toward Hellenization, when he became a lawyer etc.
Raphael Mousis: Well, I was born at 90 Tsimiski Street. These are my first childhood memories. I knew I was Jewish. The term Romaniot was unknown to me. Although obviously the Romaniot element predominated because of my mother. And my father's mother who lived with us was from Ioannina, married to a man from Trikala. So that's why I say three-quarters.
Raphael Mousis: I spoke Greek. I never learned Ladino. They didn't send me to a Jewish school. I went to first grade at Valagianni School. Consequently I knew that I was Jewish, but otherwise. The people I saw around in the environment, except for Yomtov Coel, were all Orthodox Christians. And what was cultivated in me was more the element of being Greek. Although I knew of course that I was Jewish.
Raphael Mousis: I went to first grade at Valagianni School. And my memories until a certain date that I'll tell you and which is significant. They were the scattered childhood memories that we all have. I remember incidents, random ones, that had impressed me. The memories that become continuous and consistent from October 28, 1940. This experience was so shocking for me, that from then on I remember everything. As they say, from day to day.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Something important to tell you before 1940.
Raphael Mousis: I told you scattered, not significant memories.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: When you were, let's say, small, did your family observe the holidays at home?
Raphael Mousis: Look. Not with great consistency. That is, I don't remember Passover Seder. It may have been celebrated, but it wasn't something that stayed with me. We didn't go to synagogue on Friday and Saturday. They didn't take me to synagogue. And it's curious, one of those paradoxes. You have an Aser Mousis, who is President of the Jewish Community. President of Benemerit. President of the Zionists. Certainly the leading figure of the great Judaism of Thessaloniki. And his son goes to a Greek school. Doesn't learn Hebrew. There were very good Jewish schools. These are things and later I'll tell you how I think it affected my life.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Good. Did your father pray in the morning?
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Did your father himself pray.
Raphael Mousis: No. I don't remember such prayer. There was a mezuzah outside the house door. The only element if you will. I have a stronger memory of the charity box for Keren Kayemet. Which was always there. And we always put money in. As well as that someone would come. Obviously it was the first of each Jewish month. He would knock on the door and say. "Rosh Chodesh." And something had to be given to him. Someone would pass by to collect some kind of subscription for the first of the month.
Raphael Mousis: Among the things that had impressed me. Was the death of Ioannis Metaxas. My father was not a Metaxas supporter. He has characterized himself as anti-Venizelist, repentant. Later in his life. He recognized the value of Eleftherios Venizelos. But I remember my mother crying when the radio announced the death of Ioannis Metaxas. It had made a great impression on me that my mother was crying because Metaxas died.
Raphael Mousis: I remember myself. There was one of those radios, the Philips ones, that had some fabric in front. And he says, you know, a device has come out with which you can see the person talking. And I with my imagination saw the radio and behind the fabric someone coming out. This was my first perception that television existed.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: The declaration of war, why did it affect you.
Raphael Mousis: Well, I woke up. And my room had a window and balcony on Tsimiski Street. While my parents' wasn't, it was further back. But both my parents were in my room at the window looking down. And as soon as I woke up I got up and went to the window and it was this image that you've heard described. In a state of celebration.
Raphael Mousis: In a state of enthusiasm young people running and singing and shouting and climbing on trams. They take trams on Tsimiski. To go enlist. That is, what is described as this outbreak of heroism let's go fight for the homeland. It was something that happened. It didn't happen only in Athens as I'll say. It happened everywhere. It happened everywhere. There didn't need to be networks to transmit let's go celebrate. It was something that was spontaneous and that impressed me.
Raphael Mousis: Subsequently okay war has been declared. It remained nice initially. It was Monday. October 28th why nice. Because first we didn't go to school. The schools closed. So I could then. It was something more. Games. To put some papers with glue on the windows so they wouldn't break. We made some pretend shelters. You know here on the tables there will be cotton and as soon as the sirens sound you'll put cotton in your ears so the bombs won't deafen you. And all these were nice. And Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday. Everything nice the war. Otherwise. And Friday morning the bombing happens.
Raphael Mousis: The first bombing in Thessaloniki happened on November 1st, Friday. And the sirens sounded and our instruction was to go down to the basement which wasn't a shelter just to go downstairs. But while we were going down the all-clear sounded. And we started going back up but what had happened was Italian planes had come with Greek markings. The air defense was deceived and gave the all-clear when it saw them. And they came and dropped the first bombs while we were going up the stairs and I remember the terrible noise and the house shook. And I looked at the ceiling I was sure it would fall on my head. It didn't fall of course obviously.
Raphael Mousis: My father had gone to his office and returned immediately after the end of the alarm. Many bombs fell that day in the city. To take us and bring us to his sister's house, aunt Louiza's there who lived in a reinforced concrete apartment building. While our house was wood and bricks. Well and we went out.
Raphael Mousis: And it was a situation I'll never forget. Great chaos. In one corner a policeman with his leg cut off. Which I couldn't... Imagine now a small 7-year-old child seeing a severed leg. And then two houses from which flames were coming out of the windows. And this was the memory. And from then on...
Raphael Mousis: The spoiled child for whom everything was going well. Becomes a fearful creature. Who was afraid even to go to the toilet. With the fear that while I was with my pants down. There would be an alarm and I wouldn't have time to... And this is the complete let's say change and impression.
Raphael Mousis: We left when the regime changed in Yugoslavia. And my father assessed that it was inevitable. I lived of course the triumph of the Albanian campaign. We waited for the humor magazines to come out. Humor magazines came out with all the caricatures. We sang. I can sing you all the songs. "Foolish Mussolini" and the rest. I remember by heart all the songs that the children of Greece sang. Children who... Children who fight up in the mountains. All the songs.
Raphael Mousis: But he understood that Germany would inevitably enter and would come. And consequently as a prominent person he had to leave Thessaloniki. And he managed to find tickets for us to get on the train. And so we abandoned the house in Thessaloniki. At the Railway Station a friend of his approached him, Isak Angel, a prominent personality of Thessaloniki, who asked him give me one ticket. But this... But the child I don't need a ticket. The small child now you'll take the ticket and he gave him my ticket and I started crying because I wanted my ticket and my father gave my ticket to Isak Angel and we came to Athens.
Raphael Mousis: So ends the story, if you will, of life in Thessaloniki from which we started.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Let me ask something. Let me ask. When you left Thessaloniki for Athens did you still stay with your aunt?
Raphael Mousis: No. We stayed with my aunt very few days perhaps only one night in which there must have been ten Jewish families refugees in the same space there at night which was somehow reinforced concrete the house. Subsequently for several days we were hosted in the treasury in the vault of the Commercial Bank. My father among his company was the Director of National Bank Patakakis and the Director of Commercial Bank Soskeves and in one of the two downstairs where the safe deposit boxes were it was obviously a safe space a huge space with safe deposit boxes all around and there we stayed many days many nights until later we went we were hosted at Yomtov Coel's house which was somewhat outside the center while a shelter was being built on Tsimiski where we returned for a little but immediately after we came to Athens to a hotel near the University in an apartment on a side street of September 3rd Street there the entry of the Germans into Athens found us
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Did your father follow foreign news from before the war
Raphael Mousis: He certainly followed foreign news from before the war I remember him listening to Dinos in Greek the Greek broadcast of BBC he also read newspapers in Thessaloniki he took "Palestine Post" initially it was called "Palestine Post" consequently he read and listened to radio
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: At that time did he speak fluent Hebrew?
Raphael Mousis: not yet he learned Hebrew probably during the occupation and afterwards of course he spoke French he spoke Spanish, he spoke Italian he didn't speak English, he learned English after the war his English was very poor but he spoke it
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and what languages did your mother speak?
Raphael Mousis: my mother spoke fluent French and Greek
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: had she grown up in Ioannina?
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and what school had she attended?
Raphael Mousis: Zosimaia School
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: so she hadn't attended the Alliance?
Raphael Mousis: no she had gone to Zosimaia
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and you said the marriage was arranged?
Raphael Mousis: yes
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and who initiated the matchmaking?
Raphael Mousis: well their godparents were Oreozil and Alexandros Levy Oreozil was related from Trikala and Alexandros Levy was from Volos and Alexandros had some kinship with Levy Alexandros Levy had kinship with the Ioannina Levys based on circumstances that she made the match and they were their godparents
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: so it was from the bride's side that the matchmaking started
Raphael Mousis: that's how it really happened and no look Oreozil we said is from Trikala Alexandros from Ioannina consequently Oreozil had the relationship with the father and Alexandros the relationship with the mother
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and I just wanted to clarify something from your father's side Raphael Mose then could we say he was Sephardic do we know this
Raphael Mousis: no he was also Romaniot no rather Romaniot but he spoke Spanish and Nona Miriam although she was Romaniot had learned and spoke
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and you called her Nona
Raphael Mousis: we called her Nona yes
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: the Barzilay story but we jump immediately somewhat
Raphael Mousis: it's a very interesting story because there are two versions of what exactly happened to Ilias Barzilay there is what I call the heroic version which is supported by his descendants according to the heroic version he himself decided to say to flee to the rebels and to leave alone on a white horse when they describe him let's say leaving anyway and there is the version that my father has written which is that when the Germans called him and told him we want you to bring us the lists of Jews and so on who had called him who had met with Barzilay the Germans
Raphael Mousis: they called him to the Kommandantur in Merlin and coming out from there he went to Psychico to my father where Yomtov Coel was also and told them and my father told him you'll go again and try to tell them that the archives were lost and so on but meanwhile with Yomtov Coel and an Ilias Cohen whom I remember vaguely a tall man he also had a second name Markesis although I still hadn't then he had a connection with EAM and then this Greece he arranged the kidnapping which was voluntary of course Barzilay didn't object but it wasn't his initiative he met with my father at the corner of Erdouadou and Loukesta 2 streets and there is where he recounted it and after these things he organized with Markesis and my son Yomtov Coel his kidnapping
Raphael Mousis: I think this is the authentic story because recently he had no reason Aser Mousis is not sanctified by this narrative so that you'd say he fabricated it to... and Barzilay cooperated completely they took him to an underground place in Kolonaki where they shaved him and then he was spirited away and from then on the story is the same
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: you hadn't known Barzilay very well, had you, I mean not after the war
Raphael Mousis: before, before I don't remember him he wouldn't remember, he didn't take me to synagogue I don't remember having gone to synagogue something
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: then let's take it in order when you come here you found you say Side Street of September 3rd initially you stay after the hotel and then what do you do?
Raphael Mousis: then we go for a period to Ioannina because Ioannina is under Italian occupation consequently the Jews are safe in Ioannina by bus of SEK SEK is Greek railroad railway of the Greek state were the initials SEK which also had buses except where there weren't any consequently the communication the transportation Athens-Ioannina was with SEK buses the first day of the two-day journey was Athens Nafpaktos overnight stay in Nafpaktos which I remember and the next Nafpaktos Messolonghi Agrinio Arta-Ioannina second day two full days I remember all these very well so we went we stayed in Ioannina
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: You're an only child we've been saying this all along no siblings
Raphael Mousis: I had an older sister Myreta who emigrated and died in Israel she died young after the war Myreta became Israeli Myreta is with us in all these things we're narrating
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and when was Myreta born?
Raphael Mousis: Myreta was born in 29 also at Tsimiski 90
Raphael Mousis: well in Ioannina we live several months in the beautiful mansion on Kountouriotou Street and I have my memories there I had already entered Athens College because while we are on September 3rd my father sells the Tsimiski property and buys two houses in Athens one on a side street of Patision Street and one in Psychico to which Psychico we moved and while we were on Macedonia Street was the side street September 3rd I had gone for a short period to a private school there of someone Nikolopoulos subsequently I don't know how my father learned of the existence of Athens College and we settled in Psychico we took entrance exams at the Psychico branch Athens College the building you know then was a military hospital and two schools operated one was in Athens at the corner of Akademias and SYNA in an old maternity hospital and for children who lived in Psychico or Filothei the Psychico branch where I entered
Raphael Mousis: we entered college then in Fourth Grade we took exams 10 children candidates you may have heard today they take exams I know some hundreds and one in ten gets in we took 10 and 11 of us got in because another one came later and got in without anyway we took exams now these college things because it's also 100 years this year Athens College celebrates 100 years from its founding and I've told these stories in other kinds of narratives because I am perhaps one of the very few not the only one but perhaps the only surviving student of the Psychico branch
Raphael Mousis: well I had entered college and we leave and go to Ioannina again Christian school not to Jewish school
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: do you remember what specific period we're talking about?
Raphael Mousis: 1943 you went to Ioannina in 1943 after the persecutions of Thessaloniki had begun we go to Ioannina that is end of 1942 beginning of 1943 and we are in Ioannina in 1943 until the collapse of Italy in 1943 and the Germans enter and they enter into the garden and pitch tents and then my father tries to convince the rest of the family the Ioannina family to leave they don't want to leave
Raphael Mousis: among my memories the vivid ones I have is at the entrance in front digging a pit to hide silverware and such things but they hadn't been able to make it level and it was obvious and of course all these were lost well and we left after the entry of the Germans with a truck among my intense memories was my grandmother Aneta my mother's mother who was also... the golden cross at the Red Cross is hers there she was a volunteer nurse at the Red Cross Aneta Levy throwing a bucket of water on the wheels on the rear wheel of the truck this was the good farewell it was to throw you know this as a custom to throw a bucket of water on the wheel of the cart or car that was leaving and we left and returned to Athens and then is the story of salvation at Giannitsi's house that you've heard
In the second part of the interview, Raphael Moses describes the period of his family's secret residence in Kifissia (1943-1944) and the post-war activity of his father Asher Moses in the reconstruction of the Jewish community. He mentions his father's important letter to Jesus Christ, the creation of the KIS and the OPIE, and his diplomatic activities for the newly established State of Israel. Moses also tells his personal story: his studies in England and America, his love affair with the Christian Dido Surapa and their marriage in Boston in 1958, their return to Greece and his assumption of the leadership of EBGA.
Raphael Moses recounts his first memories of his birth in Thessaloniki in 1933, his family origins in Ioannina and Trikala, and his experiences during the declaration of war in 1940. He describes his family's life on Tsimiski Street, the first bombing of Thessaloniki, the flight to Athens and then to Ioannina, and the return to Athens after the Germans entered. The narrative presents a vivid picture of the Jewish community of Thessaloniki and the early years of the Occupation through the eyes of a child.
Transcription
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Today is Monday, January 27, 2025, the time is 11:36, we are here with Mr. Raphael Mousis at his home in Kifisia and I will conduct the interview, Michalis Daskalakis Giontis.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Now, Mr. Mousis, first I would like to ask you where you were born?
Raphael Mousis: Well, I was born in Thessaloniki, although when they ask me what my origin is, my answer is I am three-quarters from Ioannina and one-quarter from Trikala in Thessaly and I don't say I'm from Thessaloniki and indeed neither my father, nor my mother, nor any ancestor was from Thessaloniki, they were not Sephardic.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Sephardic, yes.
Raphael Mousis: So why was I born in Thessaloniki? My father, Aser Mousis, was born in Trikala and grew up in Trikala. The Jews of Trikala because they had influences both from the Romaniotes of Ioannina and from the Sephardic Jews of Thessaloniki, in many homes they spoke both languages. So my father grew up and had two mother tongues. Which he spoke equally well. Greek and Ladino, the Jewish language.
Raphael Mousis: He grew up, he was very good at his school. And his father, Raphael Mousis, whose name I bear, was a court clerk. And so with legal matters he had, if you will, some kinship my father. And he came and studied law. At the University of Athens. He graduated from the University of Athens.
Raphael Mousis: And he knew that there was this large and flourishing Jewish community in Thessaloniki. Which had the problem that it had found itself relatively recently belonging to a state called Greece. With which they had no connection. They didn't speak the language. The Jews of Thessaloniki. Among themselves they spoke Ladino. And the educated ones spoke French.
Raphael Mousis: I remember as a small child newspapers that were circulating and were either in Ladino or "L'Action." There was a Jewish newspaper published in French. Consequently they didn't know Greek. And they found themselves having issues that they needed to support before courts. And there was no lawyer with whom they could communicate. And there came like a deus ex machina Aser Mousis, who was a Greek lawyer, speaking Judeo-Spanish.
Raphael Mousis: It is written in a biography of one of their colleagues that to see Aser Mousis as a client's lawyer you had to ask for priority appointment. So great was the need. And subsequently he brought into his office Yomtov Coel, also a very well-known prominent Jewish personality, who was also from Trikala and so there were Yomtov Coel and Aser Mousis in the same office on Ermou Street in Thessaloniki.
Raphael Mousis: And subsequently they brought with them also a fellow Trikala classmate, this time not Jewish, Sotirios Papadimas, who was a notary and so there were the two Jewish lawyers and the collaborating notary who served all needs, whether civil, criminal, family, whatever, of my father.
Raphael Mousis: Well, that's why I found myself in Thessaloniki, subsequently while he had already established himself as a lawyer through arrangement he married my mother, Rieti Geti Levy, granddaughter of Davidson Effendi, so, from Ioannina, the wedding took place in Ioannina and then they settled in Thessaloniki, at 90 Tsimiski Street.
Raphael Mousis: You know today when we say they lived on Tsimiski Street, it seems strange, because Tsimiski is a commercial street, shops, offices, then it was a street where people lived and it was three floors and an attic, four in total, property of my father and in this house I was born, so. And that explains why I was born in Thessaloniki.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Your grandfather Raphael Mousis is the one who was tortured as mentioned in the book.
Raphael Mousis: He is the one whose left hand was cut off because he was accused, during the recapture of Trikala by the Turks in the war, the Unfortunate War of 1897 and he was accused of pro-Greek activity for which he was sentenced to death. A Turkish friend of his, Omer Bey, intervened on his behalf and the death sentence was commuted to a sentence of hand amputation. He was the one who was one-handed. He wasn't alive when I was born, I never knew him.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: What year were you born?
Raphael Mousis: 1933.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Was your father's family many generations in Trikala, as you know?
Raphael Mousis: Look, no, it couldn't have been many generations because his grandfather must have been from Agrinio. And they were expelled, there was a persecution of Jews from Agrinio during the time of Kosmas of Aetolia. And of course there were no surnames, Jews didn't have surnames. They had a name and patronymic. They were forced to acquire a surname in order to obtain Greek citizenship. And so Raphael Mose, which were both first names, became Raphael as first name and Mose as surname. My father changed Mose to Mousis when in some way there was a tendency toward Hellenization, when he became a lawyer etc.
Raphael Mousis: Well, I was born at 90 Tsimiski Street. These are my first childhood memories. I knew I was Jewish. The term Romaniot was unknown to me. Although obviously the Romaniot element predominated because of my mother. And my father's mother who lived with us was from Ioannina, married to a man from Trikala. So that's why I say three-quarters.
Raphael Mousis: I spoke Greek. I never learned Ladino. They didn't send me to a Jewish school. I went to first grade at Valagianni School. Consequently I knew that I was Jewish, but otherwise. The people I saw around in the environment, except for Yomtov Coel, were all Orthodox Christians. And what was cultivated in me was more the element of being Greek. Although I knew of course that I was Jewish.
Raphael Mousis: I went to first grade at Valagianni School. And my memories until a certain date that I'll tell you and which is significant. They were the scattered childhood memories that we all have. I remember incidents, random ones, that had impressed me. The memories that become continuous and consistent from October 28, 1940. This experience was so shocking for me, that from then on I remember everything. As they say, from day to day.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Something important to tell you before 1940.
Raphael Mousis: I told you scattered, not significant memories.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: When you were, let's say, small, did your family observe the holidays at home?
Raphael Mousis: Look. Not with great consistency. That is, I don't remember Passover Seder. It may have been celebrated, but it wasn't something that stayed with me. We didn't go to synagogue on Friday and Saturday. They didn't take me to synagogue. And it's curious, one of those paradoxes. You have an Aser Mousis, who is President of the Jewish Community. President of Benemerit. President of the Zionists. Certainly the leading figure of the great Judaism of Thessaloniki. And his son goes to a Greek school. Doesn't learn Hebrew. There were very good Jewish schools. These are things and later I'll tell you how I think it affected my life.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Good. Did your father pray in the morning?
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Did your father himself pray.
Raphael Mousis: No. I don't remember such prayer. There was a mezuzah outside the house door. The only element if you will. I have a stronger memory of the charity box for Keren Kayemet. Which was always there. And we always put money in. As well as that someone would come. Obviously it was the first of each Jewish month. He would knock on the door and say. "Rosh Chodesh." And something had to be given to him. Someone would pass by to collect some kind of subscription for the first of the month.
Raphael Mousis: Among the things that had impressed me. Was the death of Ioannis Metaxas. My father was not a Metaxas supporter. He has characterized himself as anti-Venizelist, repentant. Later in his life. He recognized the value of Eleftherios Venizelos. But I remember my mother crying when the radio announced the death of Ioannis Metaxas. It had made a great impression on me that my mother was crying because Metaxas died.
Raphael Mousis: I remember myself. There was one of those radios, the Philips ones, that had some fabric in front. And he says, you know, a device has come out with which you can see the person talking. And I with my imagination saw the radio and behind the fabric someone coming out. This was my first perception that television existed.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: The declaration of war, why did it affect you.
Raphael Mousis: Well, I woke up. And my room had a window and balcony on Tsimiski Street. While my parents' wasn't, it was further back. But both my parents were in my room at the window looking down. And as soon as I woke up I got up and went to the window and it was this image that you've heard described. In a state of celebration.
Raphael Mousis: In a state of enthusiasm young people running and singing and shouting and climbing on trams. They take trams on Tsimiski. To go enlist. That is, what is described as this outbreak of heroism let's go fight for the homeland. It was something that happened. It didn't happen only in Athens as I'll say. It happened everywhere. It happened everywhere. There didn't need to be networks to transmit let's go celebrate. It was something that was spontaneous and that impressed me.
Raphael Mousis: Subsequently okay war has been declared. It remained nice initially. It was Monday. October 28th why nice. Because first we didn't go to school. The schools closed. So I could then. It was something more. Games. To put some papers with glue on the windows so they wouldn't break. We made some pretend shelters. You know here on the tables there will be cotton and as soon as the sirens sound you'll put cotton in your ears so the bombs won't deafen you. And all these were nice. And Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday. Everything nice the war. Otherwise. And Friday morning the bombing happens.
Raphael Mousis: The first bombing in Thessaloniki happened on November 1st, Friday. And the sirens sounded and our instruction was to go down to the basement which wasn't a shelter just to go downstairs. But while we were going down the all-clear sounded. And we started going back up but what had happened was Italian planes had come with Greek markings. The air defense was deceived and gave the all-clear when it saw them. And they came and dropped the first bombs while we were going up the stairs and I remember the terrible noise and the house shook. And I looked at the ceiling I was sure it would fall on my head. It didn't fall of course obviously.
Raphael Mousis: My father had gone to his office and returned immediately after the end of the alarm. Many bombs fell that day in the city. To take us and bring us to his sister's house, aunt Louiza's there who lived in a reinforced concrete apartment building. While our house was wood and bricks. Well and we went out.
Raphael Mousis: And it was a situation I'll never forget. Great chaos. In one corner a policeman with his leg cut off. Which I couldn't... Imagine now a small 7-year-old child seeing a severed leg. And then two houses from which flames were coming out of the windows. And this was the memory. And from then on...
Raphael Mousis: The spoiled child for whom everything was going well. Becomes a fearful creature. Who was afraid even to go to the toilet. With the fear that while I was with my pants down. There would be an alarm and I wouldn't have time to... And this is the complete let's say change and impression.
Raphael Mousis: We left when the regime changed in Yugoslavia. And my father assessed that it was inevitable. I lived of course the triumph of the Albanian campaign. We waited for the humor magazines to come out. Humor magazines came out with all the caricatures. We sang. I can sing you all the songs. "Foolish Mussolini" and the rest. I remember by heart all the songs that the children of Greece sang. Children who... Children who fight up in the mountains. All the songs.
Raphael Mousis: But he understood that Germany would inevitably enter and would come. And consequently as a prominent person he had to leave Thessaloniki. And he managed to find tickets for us to get on the train. And so we abandoned the house in Thessaloniki. At the Railway Station a friend of his approached him, Isak Angel, a prominent personality of Thessaloniki, who asked him give me one ticket. But this... But the child I don't need a ticket. The small child now you'll take the ticket and he gave him my ticket and I started crying because I wanted my ticket and my father gave my ticket to Isak Angel and we came to Athens.
Raphael Mousis: So ends the story, if you will, of life in Thessaloniki from which we started.
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Let me ask something. Let me ask. When you left Thessaloniki for Athens did you still stay with your aunt?
Raphael Mousis: No. We stayed with my aunt very few days perhaps only one night in which there must have been ten Jewish families refugees in the same space there at night which was somehow reinforced concrete the house. Subsequently for several days we were hosted in the treasury in the vault of the Commercial Bank. My father among his company was the Director of National Bank Patakakis and the Director of Commercial Bank Soskeves and in one of the two downstairs where the safe deposit boxes were it was obviously a safe space a huge space with safe deposit boxes all around and there we stayed many days many nights until later we went we were hosted at Yomtov Coel's house which was somewhat outside the center while a shelter was being built on Tsimiski where we returned for a little but immediately after we came to Athens to a hotel near the University in an apartment on a side street of September 3rd Street there the entry of the Germans into Athens found us
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: Did your father follow foreign news from before the war
Raphael Mousis: He certainly followed foreign news from before the war I remember him listening to Dinos in Greek the Greek broadcast of BBC he also read newspapers in Thessaloniki he took "Palestine Post" initially it was called "Palestine Post" consequently he read and listened to radio
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: At that time did he speak fluent Hebrew?
Raphael Mousis: not yet he learned Hebrew probably during the occupation and afterwards of course he spoke French he spoke Spanish, he spoke Italian he didn't speak English, he learned English after the war his English was very poor but he spoke it
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and what languages did your mother speak?
Raphael Mousis: my mother spoke fluent French and Greek
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: had she grown up in Ioannina?
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and what school had she attended?
Raphael Mousis: Zosimaia School
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: so she hadn't attended the Alliance?
Raphael Mousis: no she had gone to Zosimaia
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and you said the marriage was arranged?
Raphael Mousis: yes
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and who initiated the matchmaking?
Raphael Mousis: well their godparents were Oreozil and Alexandros Levy Oreozil was related from Trikala and Alexandros Levy was from Volos and Alexandros had some kinship with Levy Alexandros Levy had kinship with the Ioannina Levys based on circumstances that she made the match and they were their godparents
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: so it was from the bride's side that the matchmaking started
Raphael Mousis: that's how it really happened and no look Oreozil we said is from Trikala Alexandros from Ioannina consequently Oreozil had the relationship with the father and Alexandros the relationship with the mother
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and I just wanted to clarify something from your father's side Raphael Mose then could we say he was Sephardic do we know this
Raphael Mousis: no he was also Romaniot no rather Romaniot but he spoke Spanish and Nona Miriam although she was Romaniot had learned and spoke
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and you called her Nona
Raphael Mousis: we called her Nona yes
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: the Barzilay story but we jump immediately somewhat
Raphael Mousis: it's a very interesting story because there are two versions of what exactly happened to Ilias Barzilay there is what I call the heroic version which is supported by his descendants according to the heroic version he himself decided to say to flee to the rebels and to leave alone on a white horse when they describe him let's say leaving anyway and there is the version that my father has written which is that when the Germans called him and told him we want you to bring us the lists of Jews and so on who had called him who had met with Barzilay the Germans
Raphael Mousis: they called him to the Kommandantur in Merlin and coming out from there he went to Psychico to my father where Yomtov Coel was also and told them and my father told him you'll go again and try to tell them that the archives were lost and so on but meanwhile with Yomtov Coel and an Ilias Cohen whom I remember vaguely a tall man he also had a second name Markesis although I still hadn't then he had a connection with EAM and then this Greece he arranged the kidnapping which was voluntary of course Barzilay didn't object but it wasn't his initiative he met with my father at the corner of Erdouadou and Loukesta 2 streets and there is where he recounted it and after these things he organized with Markesis and my son Yomtov Coel his kidnapping
Raphael Mousis: I think this is the authentic story because recently he had no reason Aser Mousis is not sanctified by this narrative so that you'd say he fabricated it to... and Barzilay cooperated completely they took him to an underground place in Kolonaki where they shaved him and then he was spirited away and from then on the story is the same
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: you hadn't known Barzilay very well, had you, I mean not after the war
Raphael Mousis: before, before I don't remember him he wouldn't remember, he didn't take me to synagogue I don't remember having gone to synagogue something
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: then let's take it in order when you come here you found you say Side Street of September 3rd initially you stay after the hotel and then what do you do?
Raphael Mousis: then we go for a period to Ioannina because Ioannina is under Italian occupation consequently the Jews are safe in Ioannina by bus of SEK SEK is Greek railroad railway of the Greek state were the initials SEK which also had buses except where there weren't any consequently the communication the transportation Athens-Ioannina was with SEK buses the first day of the two-day journey was Athens Nafpaktos overnight stay in Nafpaktos which I remember and the next Nafpaktos Messolonghi Agrinio Arta-Ioannina second day two full days I remember all these very well so we went we stayed in Ioannina
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: You're an only child we've been saying this all along no siblings
Raphael Mousis: I had an older sister Myreta who emigrated and died in Israel she died young after the war Myreta became Israeli Myreta is with us in all these things we're narrating
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: and when was Myreta born?
Raphael Mousis: Myreta was born in 29 also at Tsimiski 90
Raphael Mousis: well in Ioannina we live several months in the beautiful mansion on Kountouriotou Street and I have my memories there I had already entered Athens College because while we are on September 3rd my father sells the Tsimiski property and buys two houses in Athens one on a side street of Patision Street and one in Psychico to which Psychico we moved and while we were on Macedonia Street was the side street September 3rd I had gone for a short period to a private school there of someone Nikolopoulos subsequently I don't know how my father learned of the existence of Athens College and we settled in Psychico we took entrance exams at the Psychico branch Athens College the building you know then was a military hospital and two schools operated one was in Athens at the corner of Akademias and SYNA in an old maternity hospital and for children who lived in Psychico or Filothei the Psychico branch where I entered
Raphael Mousis: we entered college then in Fourth Grade we took exams 10 children candidates you may have heard today they take exams I know some hundreds and one in ten gets in we took 10 and 11 of us got in because another one came later and got in without anyway we took exams now these college things because it's also 100 years this year Athens College celebrates 100 years from its founding and I've told these stories in other kinds of narratives because I am perhaps one of the very few not the only one but perhaps the only surviving student of the Psychico branch
Raphael Mousis: well I had entered college and we leave and go to Ioannina again Christian school not to Jewish school
Michalis Daskalakis Giontis: do you remember what specific period we're talking about?
Raphael Mousis: 1943 you went to Ioannina in 1943 after the persecutions of Thessaloniki had begun we go to Ioannina that is end of 1942 beginning of 1943 and we are in Ioannina in 1943 until the collapse of Italy in 1943 and the Germans enter and they enter into the garden and pitch tents and then my father tries to convince the rest of the family the Ioannina family to leave they don't want to leave
Raphael Mousis: among my memories the vivid ones I have is at the entrance in front digging a pit to hide silverware and such things but they hadn't been able to make it level and it was obvious and of course all these were lost well and we left after the entry of the Germans with a truck among my intense memories was my grandmother Aneta my mother's mother who was also... the golden cross at the Red Cross is hers there she was a volunteer nurse at the Red Cross Aneta Levy throwing a bucket of water on the wheels on the rear wheel of the truck this was the good farewell it was to throw you know this as a custom to throw a bucket of water on the wheel of the cart or car that was leaving and we left and returned to Athens and then is the story of salvation at Giannitsi's house that you've heard